Lied von Eis und Feuer - Theorienthread (SPOILERTHREAD!)

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    • Okay die zweite Theorie kannte ich jetzt noch nicht, aber ich weiß, dass G. R. R. Martin schon sehr früh bestimmte, wer Johns Mutter war. Gibt da irgendein Interview mit den Schreibern der Serie und sie mussten diese Frage - sozusagen als Losungswort - beantworten bevor Martin sicher war, dass sie die Serie schreiben könnten. Wiederspricht das nicht ein bisschen Theorie 2? Also in dem Sinne als dass die Leute nur sehr schwer auf die Theorie kommen könnten.
      'Maturity,' father had slowly begun,'
      Is knowing you're wrong and accepting it, son.
      There's prudence in pausing with patience and joy -
      And hearing the wisdom in others, my boy.
      'A person's perspective,' he said with a smile,
      'Is plain if you walk in their shoes for a while.             		And if you can do it - if maybe you do -
      You might understand, and agree that it's true.'
      I followed his reasons, and nodded, polite;
      Perhaps that was logic - perhaps he was right.
      Perhaps there was truth in his claim all along...
      'I'm twenty,' I countered: 'I'm right, and you're wrong.'

    • Spoiler anzeigen
      eben deswegen finde ich die theorie r + l = d soviel besser. r + l = j ignoriert soviele gegenläufige hinweise insbesondere aus neds kapiteln in agot, dass es mir beim zweitlesen direkt ins auge gesprungen ist.

      r + l = j ist für viele auf reddit oder tumblr quasi der heilige gral der asoiaf-theorien geworden, auf dem unendlich viele andere theorien aufbauen. dabei lassen jedoch viele die möglichkeit außer acht, dass es brandon und nicht ned gewesen sein könnte, der ein kind mit ashara dayne hatte, und vor allem missachten die meisten die unmöglichkeit der timeline von roberts rebellion unter berücksichtigung der story des insellords aus dem davos kapitel aus adwd, dessen name mir gerade entfallen ist.

    • Ja aber Brandon und Ashara = John geht mir einfach nicht so gut rein.

      edit. dunno vlt. werde das ganze mal überdenken.
      'Maturity,' father had slowly begun,'
      Is knowing you're wrong and accepting it, son.
      There's prudence in pausing with patience and joy -
      And hearing the wisdom in others, my boy.
      'A person's perspective,' he said with a smile,
      'Is plain if you walk in their shoes for a while.             		And if you can do it - if maybe you do -
      You might understand, and agree that it's true.'
      I followed his reasons, and nodded, polite;
      Perhaps that was logic - perhaps he was right.
      Perhaps there was truth in his claim all along...
      'I'm twenty,' I countered: 'I'm right, and you're wrong.'

    • Jacobs Videos feier ich, aber der ganze Tower of Joy-Kram ist super weit hergeholt und passt an einigen Stellen nicht ganz, wurde im asoiaf-reddit ganz gut auseinandergedröselt.
      Dass Dany aber von der roten Tür und einem Zitronenbaum träumt, ist tatsächlich interessant, denn in Braavos wachsen die nicht.


      Bin auf jeden Fall dafür, dass Jon tatsächlich Asharas Sohn ist, mit wem auch immer. Einfach nur für den mindfuck.



    • wurde schon gepostet das wirklich interessante sind die comments.
      geht auf die mance is rhaegar theory ein (die ich bisher einfach für kompletten schwachsinn gehalten habe)
      aber dieser modestymaltese ist entweder ein meistertroll oder er kann das ganze sehr plausibel erklären.

    • Bin inzwischen mit dem re-read fast durch und zu 99% sicher, dass Mance Rayders wirklich Rhaegar (und obv der Vater von Jon) ist. Wenn man darauf achtet gibt es so viele kleine Hinweise darauf, die mir beim ersten durchhören nie aufgefallen sind.

      Die ganze Bael the Bard geschichte, der die jungfräuliche Tochter der Starks gestohlen hat, so wie es Rhaegar getan hat. Gerade noch das Theon chapter gelesen und überall hints die dafür sprechen. (awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/…e_with_Dragons-Chapter_41)
      z.B. (The bard Abel plays "The Dornishman's Wife" with one of his women beating a drum, but he switches the lyrics to a northman instead.)
      (Inside the crypts they find that some of the dead kings' swords are missing. A bad omen, Theon thinks, as the swords are said to protect the crypt and keep the spirits of the dead from wandering).
      Theon sagt 2-3 mal in dem Kapitel sowas wie "es gibt geister in Winterfell und ich bin einer von ihnen", dazu die fehlenden Schwerter in der Krypta, nachdem "Abel/Bael/Mance" in Winterfell sind.
      Die ganze Geschichte, die Mance Jon erzählt, wie er bei der Jagd auf einen Elch--->Hirschen--->Baratheon schwer verletzt worden ist und dann gerettet wurde,


      (“One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadowcat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?” He chuckled. “It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an
      old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me.” He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. “But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears... and most of all, no red. The men of the Night’s Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was fit for burning now, he said.”
      “I left the next morning... for a place where a kiss was not a crime, and a man could wear any cloak he chose)

      dazu die Ruby Geschichte (immer wenn Rubinen erwähnt werden, sind Zauber/Lügen im Spiel) und in der Schlacht am Trident werden sie gleich 3 mal erwähnt, ebenso wie bei der Verwandlung/Rettung von Mance.
      Ich glaube auch, dass Melisandre Bescheid weiß (sie führt ein längeres Gespräch mit Mance alleine) und dafür sorgt, dass er eben nicht verbrannt wird (es gibt ja ansonsten nicht wirklich Gründe ihn zu verschonen).
      Dazu kommt, dass Rhaegar, trotz seines angeblichen Todes, ein Charakter ist, der von vielen (Jorah, Barriston, Cercei) unverhältnismäßig oft erwähnt wird, was wenig Sinn macht, wenn er keine Rolle mehr zu spielen hat.


      Zusätzlich dazu noch einige Theorien, dass Rhaegars Harfe in der Crypt in Winterfell sein soll (reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1…hanging_secret_in/cdamviq). Theon nennt noch einen weiteren Raum in der Crypt, in welchem er noch nie war.
      +die Wichtigkeit die dem Baby (auch von Aemons Seite, der es vor seinem Tod unbedingt noch halten will - auch er weiß, wer Mance wirklich ist)
      +Assuming the truth of the strong possibility that Jon is Rhaegar's son, Snow's duel with Mance Rattleshirt was certainly a nod to Luke and Vader. Alfie Allen, Theon in the TV series, has said, "I can tell you that [Jon's parentage] involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation."
      +Ned told his wife, "We have nothing to fear of Mance Rayder." ---Ned weiß natürlich aufgrund der ganzen Tower of Joy Geschichte auch bescheid, und hilft vermutlich auch bei der Flucht zur Mauer
      +Mance war in Winterfell bei Roberts besuch (vermutlich um mit Ned/Benjen zu sprechen und um Jon zu sehen, an den er sich erinnert)
      +"I know every bawdy song that's ever been made, north or south of the Wall.[1] ”
      - Mance to Jon Snow - Rhaegar war berühmt dafür Sänger/Harfenspieler zu sein
      +reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1…tle_theory_of_mine_about/



      Der Post ist eh schon viel zu nerdig/lang und ich hab noch nicht mal angerissen, wer noch alles involviert sein könnte oder dinge wie die Theorie, dass Arthur Dayne Tormund Giantsbane ist etc. Naja wollte das hier mal droppen auf jeden Fall.

    • Den Sohn seiner sterbenden Schwester zu retten, denn ein Kind von Rhaegar wäre unter Robert dem Tode geweiht gewesen, ist doch schon was gewaltig anderes als seinen Feind irgendwie an die Mauer zu schmuggeln. Ned war mit Sicherheit ein Ehrenmann, aber er war auch immer loyal zu Robert und so einen Verrat traue ich ihm nicht zu. Bin da eher bei Busfahrer, finde es ziemlich unglubwürdig, dass Ned Rhaegar irgendwie geholfen hat.
      Und wie schafft es Rhaegar dass ihn niemand erkennt. Die Targs sind nicht gerade unauffällig vom Aussehen. will nicht sagen dass es totaler Blödsinn ist, aber so richtig dran glauben kann ich nicht.

    • Das Aussehen könnte man halt mit den Rubinen erklären.
      Also bei der Schlacht am Trident fallen Rubinen von Rhaegars Rüstung ab (alle bis auf einen werden gefunden)
      und später nutzt Melisandre Rubinen, um das Aussehen von Mance wiederum so zu verändern, dass ihn niemand erkennt.

      Rhaegar und Ned waren nie wirkliche Feinde, der Hass von Ned bezieht sich alleine auf Aerys, welcher seinen Vater und Bruder verbrannte, aber von einer wirklichen Feindschaft zu Rhaegar ist nie die Rede (zumindest nicht, wenn man mit einbezieht, dass Lyanna Ned vor ihrem Tod erzählt, dass sie freiwillig mit Rhaegar gegangen ist und nicht vergewaltigt/entführt wurde).
      Rhaegar hat sogar vor der Schlacht am Trident gesagt, dass wenn er zurück kommt er einen Rat einberufen will - sehr wahrscheinlich deshalb, um die Herrschaft von Aerys zu beenden.

    • Wenn die Rubine an Rhaegars Rüstung eine solche Wirkung gehabt hätten, wäre sie höchstwahrscheinlich im Moment seines Todes vergangen. Robert schlägt so hart zu, dass die Rubine zerspringen, in Fragemente zer- und in den Fluss fallen. Darauf wird im Buch explizit hingewiesen (und daher kommt auch der Name "Ruby Ford").

      Aber:
      In den Büchern wird auch darauf hingewiesen, dass es entweder 7 Rubine oder 7 Rubinteile sind, die von der Rüstung abfallen und in den Fluss fliegen.
      Erinnern wir uns an die Prophezeiung der Wood Witch über den "Prince that was promised", so kommt er aus der Blutlinie von Rhaella und Aerys dem Zweiten, also Danys Familie.
      Schauen wir mal, welche Kinder dabei rausgekommen sind:
      1. Rhaegar
      2. Viserys
      3. Daenerys
      4. Rhaenys
      5. Aegon
      6. Rhaego


      Da fehlt ja eigentlich nur noch einer und dann ist für jeden Erben aus dieser Blutlinie ein Rubin vorhanden.
      Witzigerweise wurden auch schon 6 gefunden (siehe das Brienne-chapter in A Feast For Crows, mit Ser Hyle), nur der eine fehlt noch.
      Wer könnte das wohl sein...

    • vollkommene raute an Alex-, je länger ich mich mit dieser theorie auseinandersetze, desto überzeugter bin ich von ihrer richtigkeit.

      einige weitere denkanstöße:

      - mance rayder ist der erste name überhaupt, der in asoiaf genannt wird.
      - die story des elder brothers ("reborn at the trident")
      - was sucht mance in der krypt von winterfell? (dracheneier?)
      - warum war die kingsguard am tower of joy, wenn nicht um ihren könig zu beschützen?
      - die ländereien der sechs nordmänner, die ned zum tower of joy begleiten, ermöglichen eine direkte reiseroute von den riverlands zum shadow tower.
      - mance wechselt bereits mehrfach sein aussehen (rattleshirt/abel), wäre ein weiterer glamour (rhaegar -> mance) wirklich so abwegig?
      - der fucking siebte rubin
      - die bedeutung von aemon steelsong
      - tormund giantsbanes erzählung beschreibt bloodravens höhle. bloodraven und aemon könnten ohnehin die gesamte zeit via raben in kontakt gestanden haben, rhaegar passt wunderbar dazu.

    • double:

      OK, so I only just noticed the term "Cleganebowl" referring to the theory that Sandor will return as The Hound to fight his brother in Cersei's trial by combat. I don't think this is going to happen.. however! I do believe that they will fight. Here's a theory I threw about on the official forums a while ago about how I think it will happen -

      I think Cersei's trial by combat will feature a weaker opponent - probably Lancel - as the Faith's champion. I believe she will bring out Robert Strong who will basically turn the opponent into a puddle on the floor - much to the shock of the Faith. I think Cersei will then retain her power and the turmoil in King's Landing will persist.

      Sansa is currently set to wed - as it stands she is masquerading as Littlefinger's daughter, and as the most powerful lord here it seems like the wedding will have to take place at his own seat - Harrenhall. I think the wedding will proceed to there, but not before Cersei finds out about Sansa's location. Cue Cersei sending a force led by Robert Strong to kill her on the way to her wedding.

      Basically I think there's going to be a massive fight near Harrenhall, (which incidentally is somewhere in the region of the Quiet Isle). Littlefinger's forces will be apparently overrun (Sansa's husband-to-be I think will be one of the first casualties, unlucky mate). Thankfully, the Lannister's plans were also found out (probably by a certain 7-stringed chap who's been spying on their troop movements) and the Brotherhood Without Banners charge in as the cavalry - led by Brienne of Tarth and Jaime Lannister, who finally have the opportunity to prove their oath to Catelyn.

      Brienne will be wearing the Hound's helmet, given to her by Lem to cover up her disfigured face, and both her and Jaime will face off against Robert Strong. Remember Bran's dream? This is where it comes true -

      "There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood" (Bran III)."

      I think what will happen here is that Brienne will be mortally wounded by Robert Strong, and she will lose her new helm in the fight too. But before Jaime can be crushed too along with Sansa, a strange figure walks up and picks up the helm - THAT'S RIGHT MOTHERFUCKERS IT'S CLEGANEBOWL.

      There may be extra points here if Thoros is killed and loses his flaming sword - I think there's a good chance of this because it not only prevents any battlefield resurrections but it gives Sandor a weapon that can kill the undead (although oathkeeper is another solid bet). I think the flaming sword would be better though because of the irony of Sandor using fire to kill what was once his brother. Anyway - I think THIS is what Rhllor had planned for Sandor so long ago.

      I think there's also multiple levels of irony here that add to the drama of the scene -

      firstly Sandor killing his brother with fire (as his brother hurt him).

      Secondly the fact that Sandor is no long killing him in wrath; he can only win because he is finally at peace and does so defending Sansa, not for his own revenge.

      Sansa finally gets her "knight in shining armor" - The very man who told her such things did not exist.

      I think despite vanquishing Robert Strong, Sandor will also be mortally wounded, and will probably do the dramatic thing and die in Sansa's arms, possibly with a heart-rending "little bird" final quote - oh, and the news that Arya is alive.

      Here's where the rest of it comes together. Firstly I think Brienne will currently be dying in Jaime's arms, who finally confesses his love for her, and Brienne dies knowing her oath was kept. Jaime then goes completely batshit, marches into King's Landing, confronts Cersei, and strangles her to death with his golden hand (totally paralleling Tyrion's story with the "hands of gold" that keeps getting mentioned, and also fulfilling the "valonquar" prophecy. oh also I believe that makes them both kinslayers too, they're both finally equal at this point and I believe this dichotomy is an important part of G R R Martin's writing for those two). I also believe Brienne's death is the only thing that could truly push Jaime so far as to kill Cersei.

      BONUS - I think Sansa will catch Gendry's eye. Yep, I think Sansa has had her fill of noblemen and after finding out what Gendry has done for her sister will fall for the Baratheon bastard. Note Jaime makes a comment a while back about how she'll "marry some blacksmith". I don't think that quote was coincidental. I shouldn't worry too much about the lineage, it still unites the Baratheon and Stark lines, and I suspect whoever wins will be handing out the titles at the end anyway.

      DOUBLE BONUS - I think there's a good chance Littlefinger will flee the battle to Harrenhall - where Catelyn is waiting for him, quite literally the ghost in Harrenhall. I think Baelish will meet her and to his horror will die screaming at her hands. Bit of an outside bet this one but I think it'd be really cool if it happened.

      So, yeah. Thoughts?

      EDIT - I noticed the best argument against this entire thing is that Littlefinger would not be so foolish as to leave the Vale for Harrenhall. My first argument would be that it would be appropriate for the newly ascended Lord Baelish to marry his "daughter" to Harry at his seat of power - which is of course Harrenhall. I think Littlefinger may be confident (and arrogant) enough in his plan to assume that Sansa's identity was still very much a secret, and that he was relatively safe in leaving the Eyrie for the ceremony. It would also assert his own power as a newly-founded lord to host the wedding in his own supposed seat of power.

      However! There's another very, very good reason that Petyr Baelish (and Harry the Heir) should be away from the Vale for the wedding. Because if little Robert has an "accident" while they're away it would be very hard to implicate them in his death. If Robert dies, Harry walks in as the rightful Lord of the Vale, and Littlefinger can proceed with his plan to rally the North around Sansa. Also, Marillion is alive for some unspecified reason - I suspect he may be used as a scapegoat for little Robert's death also after his "escape" from the sky cells.

      Finally, regarding LF's motives, there's also this quote to consider -

      "Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game.”

      Other Stuff - Why would LSH not kill Jaime out of hand anyway? - well, both Jaime and Brienne swore an oath, and it is the supposed breaking of this oath that unCat is judging them upon - the only thing that could really save them is fulfilling that oath. If LSH gets word that her daughter is alive, her own honor and the rules she judges them by demand that they are given the chance to fulfill that oath. In fact saving Sansa is pretty much the only thing that could save them at this point.

      How would Cersei find out? - well, Ethercakes made a few solid assertions as to who could get the secret out - Osmund Kettleblack has his sons rotting away in Kings Landing's dungeons so he would have a reason to - but I think the most compelling is Shadrich (the "Mad Mouse"). This guy only really appeared to tell Brienne he was also searching for Sansa in order to tell Varys, and the next we see of him he's in The Vale as a knight in Littlefinger's service - oh and he's met "Alayne Stone" too. He may not be familiar with Sansa - we don't know just yet how well he would recognise her face - but there's every chance his sleuthing about could reveal her identity.

      why the hell would Brienne wear the cursed Hound's helm? - well, she knows that the atrocities committed in The Hound's name were in fact perpetrated by Rorge & Co. As a knight I'd imagine she would see it as her duty to undo this injustice and to redeem what little honor Sandor's name had left. I'm pretty sure she'd do it just to rub out Rorge and Biter's crimes. I also think the hound helm has had way too much attention to be insignificant, and, contrary to popular belief, I don't think G R R Martin disfigured Brienne just for the hell of it - it mirrors Sandor's own injuries.

      (le reddit)

      get. hype.